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INTP Marriage failing.....help
#11
(03-31-2016, 06:30 PM)Moon Moon Wrote: Irrespective of typology, the benefit of being in a committed relationship is having someone you truly trust that you can depend on to be there for you when you need them. Someone who is your ally, and sees you as their ally, and depends on you as well.

I do agree the above statement whole hearty.


Sorry that your dental procedure caused such pain and such, and hope that you are on the mend now. Plus it is nice to have someone to
help you even when you don't need it.

(03-31-2016, 06:30 PM)Moon Moon Wrote: But a "committed relationship" is more than just that, it's also about mutual respect and making sure your partner feels safe with you. I personally have no moral obligations to having more than two persons involved in a relationship. There is no way that one person can be everything that another person needs; we as humans are far too complex. As far as I have experienced, having additional resources can serve to strengthen a family unit, and you can never have too many people that you can truly trust and depend on. Sure, you might relate to each of your partners in a different way, but the important thing is that you have more than one person on whom you can rely and with whom you can be comfortable being your true self. As far as I can tell, the higher percentage of our time we can spend being authentic, the healthier we are as people. Justine has no issue with that type of thing for other people, but is in no way interested in being involved in it; to her, this would be a breach of the immense amount of trust that is involved in a relationship. I Know that this doesn't have to be so, but I also Know that it's something she feels strongly about, so this is not an option for the relationship I'm in currently. It truly is that simple: it would make her uncomfortable, so it's not going to happen.


This is what it is to be committed. She relies on the fact that I will continue to make choices that would not be natural to me if I were on my own specifically because they are what is best for the relationship. Not just for her, but for us. It's like an additional, synergistic factor... Things taken into account include 1) me, 2) her, 3) the way we relate to each other. It's not always easy, and it's not always convenient, and it's not always how-I-want-it-because-I-said-so. It's called a commitment because you have to decide it's what you want and stick with your decision even when it's rough. It's choosing to continue because it's worth it, even when weighed against the strain or struggle.

I feel/think the same about commitment and to me respect and trust are most important. I am not sure that anyone can have a relationship of any kind with out them or at least trust.

(03-31-2016, 06:30 PM)Moon Moon Wrote: This is a reasonable though process to have if one is thinking philosophically, and meditating on the nature of marital relationships in the greater scheme of things, but as far as on-on-one interactions go, it's a cop-out; no external force commands him to interpret his life this way, this interpretation is a choice he makes.

I am pretty sure I understand this and agree, but want to make sure that I am thinking correctly, so if you would not mind, I would ask that you elaborating on the above state just a little more?


Also,
I would like to pose this question. Once a hurt/injustice or wrong doings has occurred and you have allowed it to affect your feelings/perception of that person (flipping the switch), how do you change your feelings/perception back to what it was?

Do you simply allow the problem to go away?
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#12
(04-04-2016, 01:42 AM)jegergirl Wrote:
(03-31-2016, 06:30 PM)Moon Moon Wrote: This is a reasonable though process to have if one is thinking philosophically, and meditating on the nature of marital relationships in the greater scheme of things, but as far as on-on-one interactions go, it's a cop-out; no external force commands him to interpret his life this way, this interpretation is a choice he makes.

I am pretty sure I understand this and agree, but want to make sure that I am thinking correctly, so if you would not mind, I would ask that you elaborating on the above state just a little more?

Saying that "marriage and relationships" are all the same is problematic. When you're sitting on a bench thinking about the meaning of life you can come to sweeping blanket statement conclusions like that, but when you're talking to someone you're actually involved with it's a bit different. You can't just say "all marriages are about possessing someone," because that limits your ability to make your own choices, specifically choices that are counter to that thought. This is called "cognitive dissonance," and the idea is that we like for our thoughts and actions to align so much that we will turn ourselves inside out to make them align, even if in actuality it is obvious that we are wrong (example: "I am a good person. A good person would intervene if Nazis were killing people. Therefore, the Nazis aren't killing people.")

Personally I have a relationship that is not about possession at all, partly because I don't believe it has to be, and partly because I don't live in a country where that is still the societal norm. When he makes this statement, he is creating a "law" for himself and his behavior that doesn't have to be there, but will affect the way that he sees this relationship (and any others he may have in the past or future). This is a universal human behavior, but the search for these "laws" (aka, the truth) is an INTP thing.

Whatever it was that caused him to believe that possession is a truth about marriage will color the way he sees relationships, like he's looking at them through "possession-colored glasses".... If that makes sense. Even though this is a belief he has created for himself, it will affect him in the same way as something with much greater evidence.

The part I take issue with is that this is not something that there is overwhelming evidence for and that we all can't help but have faith in like gravity or sunrises. From the way you phrase it at least, it appears to be a "truth" he has come to only recently. Perhaps he feels you have been possessive of him? Either way, he has established this blanket statement to encompass your relationship, but it might not actually be representative of your relationship at all, and now that this "truth" is in place it will change the way he sees your interactions so that it can be interpreted to be possessive. This is called confirmation bias. He'll see all the positive evidence very clearly, but overlook all the negative evidence. He didn't have to choose to believe this way, but he chose it anyway.

Quote:Also,
I would like to pose this question. Once a hurt/injustice or wrong doings has occurred and you have allowed it to affect your feelings/perception of that person (flipping the switch), how do you change your feelings/perception back to what it was?

Do you simply allow the problem to go away?
You can't go backward, only forward. If there is a hurt or injustice in a relationship it is not a healthy idea to try to forget about it and go back to the "normal" of the past, because there is very likely something about that normal that caused the hurt. It is a far better idea to try to work through the issue together, and allow your feelings/perception to evolve naturally into whatever they will become based on the interaction that you have with that person. Don't just ignore the problem, that's a recipe for resentment.
"Well if I were You-Know-Who, I'd want you to feel cut off from everyone else. Because if it's just you alone you're not as much of a threat." -Luna Lovegood
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#13
Moon Moon,

Thank you again for sharing your insight. I truly wished I would have known or found The Refuge years ago. I truly believe that it could have made a huge difference in my now failing marriage. I have actually told my husband that very statement and he took offense at it. I tried to explain to him that if I had only known more about him (INTP) then I would not have categorized him an his INTP behavior the way I did. That I would not have thought that he was just being cold and uncaring when he seem to shut down and not communicate. Plus many other ways as well. Not sure that there is anything left I can do, say or try with out making things worse.

He keeps telling me if I would take a step back and look at the relationship and how he is not an the things he believes now about relationships that I would not want to be in one with him. I try to explain to him that I have done that and continue to do that and I can not explain it to him in a way he would understand or choose to understand. I Love him. I have Love him for a very long time and will continue to Love him even if we do not succeed as a married couple. When I stop and think of not loving him or trying to actually hate him, I can't. Maybe I am broken, and I really wished I could explain to him why I love him and still want to save my marriage in a way that he could understand, but I do not think you can explain Love in that manner.

Any suggestions on how to explain Love, and emotion/feeling in a way that INTP's (no insult intended to any one) can understand it?
Or at least one who gave in to his Fe asked me to marry him and has up until last year the last week of October (when he some how turned the off) believed that we would be together forever so that he might want to turn them back on ??
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#14
(04-05-2016, 01:34 AM)jegergirl Wrote: I truly wished I would have known or found The Refuge years ago. I truly believe that it could have made a huge difference in my now failing marriage. I have actually told my husband that very statement and he took offense at it.
It's possible he took this as an admission that you have never been able to understand him-- the real, inner him-- by actually talking/interacting with him -- put another way, this could imply that you thought he was deceiving you the whole time... If you HAD found the refuge years ago, your experience of it would have been entirely different, as the members and contributors have come and gone over time.

(04-05-2016, 01:34 AM)jegergirl Wrote: I tried to explain to him that if I had only known more about him (INTP) then I would not have categorized him an his INTP behavior the way I did.
Though it may seem ironic, INTPs have a complex about being commonplace. I could see it being offensive to be told that now that you have a guidebook for figuring him out, you know everything there is to know about who he is as a person.

(04-05-2016, 01:34 AM)jegergirl Wrote: I try to explain to him that I have done that and continue to do that and I can not explain it to him in a way he would understand or choose to understand.

Perhaps he's trying to communicate that you're misunderstanding him, even if you don't intend to.

(04-05-2016, 01:34 AM)jegergirl Wrote: I Love him. I have Love him for a very long time and will continue to Love him even if we do not succeed as a married couple. When I stop and think of not loving him or trying to actually hate him, I can't.

That's what it actually means to love someone.

(04-05-2016, 01:34 AM)jegergirl Wrote: Any suggestions on how to explain Love, and emotion/feeling in a way that INTP's (no insult intended to any one) can understand it?
http://catinthecase.blogspot.com/2007/03...t-boy.html
Unfortunately my link to the original is broken, but fortunately I copied the original text out in its entirety.
"Well if I were You-Know-Who, I'd want you to feel cut off from everyone else. Because if it's just you alone you're not as much of a threat." -Luna Lovegood
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#15
You wrote: 04-05-2016, 01:34 AM
Moon Moon,

Thank you again for sharing your insight. I truly wished I would have known or found The Refuge years ago. I truly believe that it could have made a huge difference in my now failing marriage. I have actually told my husband that very statement and he took offense at it. I tried to explain to him that if I had only known more about him (INTP) then I would not have categorized him an his INTP behavior the way I did. That I would not have thought that he was just being cold and uncaring when he seem to shut down and not communicate. Plus many other ways as well. Not sure that there is anything left I can do, say or try with out making things worse.

He keeps telling me if I would take a step back and look at the relationship and how he is not an the things he believes now about relationships that I would not want to be in one with him. I try to explain to him that I have done that and continue to do that and I can not explain it to him in a way he would understand or choose to understand. I Love him. I have Love him for a very long time and will continue to Love him even if we do not succeed as a married couple. When I stop and think of not loving him or trying to actually hate him, I can't. Maybe I am broken, and I really wished I could explain to him why I love him and still want to save my marriage in a way that he could understand, but I do not think you can explain Love in that manner.

Any suggestions on how to explain Love, and emotion/feeling in a way that INTP's (no insult intended to any one) can understand it?
Or at least one who gave in to his Fe asked me to marry him and has up until last year the last week of October (when he some how turned the off) believed that we would be together forever so that he might want to turn them back on ?? "


You've said some really insightful things in this post, whether you realize it or not. I suspect not. ESFJs and INTPs are somehow attracted to each other although our functions are so different- they're in the exact opposite order of the other's. (ESFJ have Extroverted feeling, Introverted Sensing, Extroverted Intuition, and Introverted Thinking) INTPs have (Introverted Thinking, Extroverted Intution, Introverted Sensing, and Extroverted Feeling.) This means that we have reversed weakenesses and strengths. It also means it's so hard for us to understand the other.

I'll be honest here. From a compatability perspective, I feel it's not looking good. Your type values completely different things than we do. And we have entirely different viewpoints. To us, Introverted Thinking and detachment is everything; to you, Extroverted feeling is everything, and so is Introverted Sensing- the desire to know how you present yourself to the world, to comply with others, to get along, to conform. We aren't conformers. We like to stay huddled up in holes, emotional ones sometimes, and you have so much the opposite view.

If you want to read more about why this might not work, read this page about INTP worldview, and then your own page:

http://typologycentral.com/wiki/index.php/INTP

ESFJ: http://typologycentral.com/wiki/index.php/ESFJ


Some quotes from the ESFJ page: "ESFJs often have a difficult time breaking from the social fabric of their peers and companions. Like all Pi functions, auxiliary Si serves as a reminder that, no matter what external data may say, there are some things we "just know" from experience, often welling up apparently out of nowhere and providing strong hunches and instincts that something simply doesn't feel familiar enough to be right."

Also see: "When faced with an ethical dilemma, the ESFJ's natural conclusion is that she cannot make any objectively reasonable evaluation of the situation until she understands how the people in the relationships by which she defines her entire existence will feel about the issue in question."

And this is the whole crux of the issue. You're trying to sort this out with your heart. He wants to sort it out with his head. Thinking always comes first for us, always will. He asks you to be detached; you keep repeating that you can't, because your primary function is Extroverted Feeling. It's how you do your thinking, your judging. You said before that you didn't feel you could be detached. Perhaps that's true.

I suspect the more you try and argue with him, the more he will see it as positive confirmation that this can't be worked out. The only way to go forward with this, I suspect, is to accept what he says. Just listen, say you'll be his friend, and do your best to accept it. Make absolutely no efforts at manipulation. Be open to whatever he has to say. Don't try to form a plan to get back together with him. But perhaps you can be friends down the road.

At this point, you may have to accept friendship or nothing; but would friendship be better than nothing? It may be worthwhile to sit down and think about it and decide. But being distant instead of pressing the issue would be a very good thing.

I know that when I've needed space from a romantic partner in the past, if they were to come and press me, all I'd want to do is retreat further.
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#16
(04-09-2016, 03:00 AM)IWasAHighwayman Wrote: You've said some really insightful things in this post, whether you realize it or not.


Should have done this sooner but have been really busy dealing with life and all the curve balls it can throw at us. Any way, I guess I am not sure what insightful things you may be referring to?


(04-09-2016, 03:00 AM)IWasAHighwayman Wrote: He asks you to be detached; you keep repeating that you can't, because your primary function is Extroverted Feeling. It's how you do your thinking, your judging. You said before that you didn't feel you could be detached. Perhaps that's true.

Yes, my primary function is Extroverted Feeling, but I am a pretty balance ESFJ and do engage my Thinking function, more now than earlier on in life. When I am talking about detachment an state that I can not detach, it has nothing to do with looking beyond my feeling to see the reality of things.

When he has explained detachment to me. It has been to disconnect from all feelings. To disconnect/detach from all emotions inside himself. To not allow himself to have them, as if we are complete strangers. To not feel at all or ever again. Also to devalue everything. Nothing or anyone has any value or meaning at all. He has even stated that there is nothing I nor anyone else could ever do to hurt him now. He will not allow it. Not emotionally anyway.

To and ESFJ, this would not be easy and would be a place that is as scary as Hell. However that is not saying that I or any other ESFJ could not do this type or kind of detachment. As a matter of fact I have. It is not a place I like or every want to be again. It was a scary time and place for me. To detach become numb. I have had to at different times in my life due to the situations. First few times was early on in my life as a little girl, whose uncle and close family friend decided to sexually abuse me.
Then again in my previous abusive (verbally, mentally, sexually and physically) marriage in order to survive. I became numb. Numb to the world I wanted to die. I seriously, on more than one occasion thought about suicide. However, my kids needed their mom, so in order to survive, I had to learn to detach from certain things, people and feelings, but not all. So I can detach from things but I choose not to detach from certain things.



(04-09-2016, 03:00 AM)IWasAHighwayman Wrote: At this point, you may have to accept friendship or nothing; but would friendship be better than nothing? It may be worthwhile to sit down and think about it and decide. But being distant instead of pressing the issue would be a very good thing.

You are right, I may have to accept that friendship is all. To answer your question as to friendship being better than nothing at all. Well at this point I would probably have to choose the nothing at all, at least until I heal and make peace with it all. It would just be to painful to have loved someone so much and for so long and to watch him move on. That is not saying that I would not still love him, or that I would not want him to have a happy life, because I would. It is just saying it would hurt to much and be to fresh at this time for those things to happen and still be as close of friends as we were/maybe still are.

Sorry for such a long post.
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#17
Just my two cents/analysis.

You said you exhibited some negative behaviors such as "pressing him." I'm assuming you mean pressuring him to give emotional support or in other emotional ways?

He says he feels most of the connection is lost. Definition: over time he noticed that your drives, interests, and deepest inner beings were different from each other. You were emotional. He was not. This made him feel that you have nothing in common and that HE is an unfit companion for you, plus the same in reverse. That he does not have the ingredients/feelings in his being or personality to make a fit partner for you.

He says he wants to try being separated to see what would happen. He, being INTP, does not want to make an un-tested, rash decision about this very important subject. He wants to experiment to see if it is better for you both. He should be cautious with this however. He will feel such relief to be away from the confusing, emotionally charged situation that his feelings of relief could make him believe he is better off without you, even though this is probably untrue.

He thinks that you would self-sacrifice to save your marriage. This is apparently distasteful to him. INTP temperament does not wish to control or possess anyone. From his declaration that "all romantic attachments are possessive" I am fairly sure that you have made him feel like a possession at some points in your marriage, and that he has also caught himself "expecting" things of you. Possibly you ask him to "support your feelings' or "support you" when you are having feelings because "you belong to/with each other/a relationship is a mutual investment..." etc. He wants you to be equals, and for the marriage to be a win-win best-for-both deal.

He perceives that emotions can be elicited by complete strangers, and wants then to be certain you are both making the most logical choice rather than going with gut feelings that cannot be logically explained. Above all; he wants to be certain that your marriage IS actually beneficial for you, and not something that you are staying in because you feel bad for him because he's a looser, or because you are scared of doing something new.

He says he loves you and always will.

Verdict. He therefore must think that separation from you would be a benefit to YOU, or better for you in some way.

I'm guessing here, but, over-all it "seems" (key word "seems") to me he's afraid he's unable to give you support and connect with you emotionally in the way that he thinks/feels you need as a person. His "thinking personality," his strongest suit, was not good enough to figure you out and be able to keep you happy. If "Calm down." or "You don't NEED to feel all these feelings. Just step back a minute and breathe" is what you usually hear from him when you're distressed or highly emotional, it's not because he's the rock of ages trying to help you, it's because your emotions stress him out and he's trying to get you to quit "throwing" them at him so that he can relax and think.

I would suggest doing a few things.
Firstly, you *might* both need a "breather" like he's suggesting. Taking a breather would show him (a) You are willing to think"logically" about the relationship, and that (b) You are willing to examine it from another angle. (Typical INTP, always wants to "get another angle" on things.) This could go miles in your being able to re-build relationship. Visit some family. (unless your family's awful! Then... go to the zoo or something.) © It would show him that you actually care enough about it and him to think about the relationship differently. Questioning something is a compliment from or to an INTP. It means that whatever it is actually mattered enough to both catch their attention and for them to think about it from multiple angles.

Secondly, when you reconvene be sure to coolly grill him about his "relief." Is it actually just the relief of being able to take a deep breath after absence from an emotional storm? Make him dig deep to define it.

Thirdly, yes. The bullet point list. If you went on a trip, and both of you agreed to make such a list containing pros and cons to talk over when you return, it could do wonders. It is an excellent idea as long as none of the points on it are "When I'm with you I feel..." etc. Or "I feel we are really supposed to be..."

Fourth: Make and implement some changes. If he (a) can be made aware that there are actually *concrete* (logical) reasons why you like and value him as a person, even without his emotional support. (b) Relieve him from said emotional pressure; while © Make definite steps to avoid pressuring him in that way in future, such as finding a "gripe buddy" or a forum online where you can release emotions.... essentially find a shoulder to cry on that isn't his... you may survive the hurricane. I'm sure you can think of some things you'd rather him find someone ELSE to unload on, and that way he won't feel like you're just making sacrifices, but that it was a cohesive choice-based decision to stay together.

Find a hobby that you both enjoy. Do it to death. Then find another one. Ditto. Connections grow like muscles and neural circuits; by usage. If you can mentally compete with him on something... anything, it would be stellar.

It really does sound like he's worried about your own fulfillment as a person, and is trying to "optimistically" think he may also be better off without you, since he'd be less stressed.
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#18
Hey Jegergirl!

I'm sorry to hear about the issues and struggles that are occurring right now Sad these situations can cause a wild array of emotions to manifest, as well as skew perspectives and twist thoughts upside down.

It sounds like you are handling it pretty well though (all things considered!) and Moon Moon is offering some fantastic advice and guidance, along with the others Smile

I just wanted to chime in quickly on a couple of things.

Quote:He keeps telling me if I would take a step back and look at the relationship and how he is not an the things he believes now about relationships that I would not want to be in one with him. I try to explain to him that I have done that and continue to do that and I can not explain it to him in a way he would understand or choose to understand. I Love him. I have Love him for a very long time and will continue to Love him even if we do not succeed as a married couple. When I stop and think of not loving him or trying to actually hate him, I can't. Maybe I am broken, and I really wished I could explain to him why I love him and still want to save my marriage in a way that he could understand, but I do not think you can explain Love in that manner.

From my past experiences it sounds like he sees you as understanding him less and less every time you keep replying with what you've said above. I'm not saying you are in the wrong whatsoever, but if I had been in his position what I would have craved the most is for you to question and listen. Ask the why question. Take in his answers, evaluate them, and then respond in kind. This kind of approach helps show that you are listening to what his desires are and that you care - and not just abject love for seemingly no reason, or abject love despite the callousness shown from him (he may or may not be aware of the hurt he is causing you).

I'm not saying that you love him for no reason at all, but when someone is so caught up in the rhythm of their mind, or a thought loop that threatens to never stop, logic tends to go out the door (and to anyone disagreeing, if it were a logical assessment of the situation then it would involve all factors including emotions and the others own thoughts etc - and that is capacity that no human has). And so you can't expect to convince him otherwise based on the force of your own will - it would be similar to convincing an atheist that they should become a Christian based upon your own faith, it just wouldn't work.

My advice is talking. Talking and listening. The moment an assumption is made you are no longer talking to the person in front of you and instead you are talking to an image of that person in your head, a copy of them that has been adjusted to suit your view. And then if the person who's copy you are talking to makes assumptions about you, suddenly they are no longer talking to you, and now there are 4 separate people involved in this conversation, no-one is actually talking to each other and it goes nowhere, or degenerates.

You can't stop someone from making assumptions, but if you recognize them for what they are and no longer take these assumptions personally, it can help prevent a conversation from digressing or falling apart.

These conversations are a two-way street and it is always harder on the person who wants them. As I was saying earlier though, if someone is caught up in a thought-loop they are necessarily not able to be aware of how they are acting. And so it can be a very trying time, especially if your own words are being ignored.

Regardless of anything though, you aren't "broken". In absolutely no way are you broken. The true you - the only you that is actual and matters - can not be harmed, hurt or broken. The true you can become lost though, hidden behind a haze of thoughts and emotions. But know this, no matter the external influence (and your thoughts are included as "external") who you are still remains the same. If you lost an arm, who YOU are doesn't change. If you lost all your money and possessions, who YOU are doesn't change. If you lose a loved one, who YOU are doesn't change. When life seems to be at it's worst and nothing seems to be going right, the light is but a memory and pain is all you know - remember that none of that is YOU. Hear the silence between the sounds. Be the space within a room.

I hope what I have said helps or makes sense, feel free to ask or question anything and everything, and I wish you luck and goodwill in this and hope it all turns out the best for you Smile
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#19
(06-07-2016, 12:36 AM)jayc Wrote:  Hear the silence between the sounds. Be the space within a room.

Not taking away from the rest of this response which I personally take as good and supportive and certainly not taking away from your situation which you have my heartfelt understanding for - these 2 sentences particularly resonate with me though.  

My marriage is currently.....complicated. My Husband is an ISFJ.  From an INTP perspective, I have been asking him to be the space within a room for quite a few years now.  I want to be heard. I want to feel the connection. Truly listened to, not fixed, not dismissed, not twisted to his perspective, not blindly blanketed in love.  Or at least that was what I did want, what I did voice, and what didn't really happen. Now....I want the space, because being loved is no longer what I need to hear, because that love is serving him and not me. I have reached a point where I am needing to go within and stop the white noise that is being projected at me, not just from him, but from colleagues and family i.e. everyday life has started to become overwhelming in terms of additional 'feelings' being projected even slightly in my direction seem to become magnified.  All very well meaning and coming from a loving place, but in order to settle inwards, I have to block the outwards. I no longer have the energy to analyse, and an input of further data (let alone confusing pesky feelings) is putting me at a risk of drowning. So i stop it. 

As A.C. Doyle has noted, an INTP does not wish to control or possess anyone, and the further I move in trying to explain that two individuals being themselves without controlling each other, can operate as a couple better, the more he's trying to do anything to prove that he doesn't want to be without me.  I've asked him to get a hobby.  Begged him almost!! go cycling, find a walking group.  Honestly I don't know if I am doing to this to create some space or to give him something if I leave.  All I know is we have done everything together for years, even if I didn't want to.  I think I am pushing, because that is the point...."even if I didn't want to".  If there is someone else, a group, a person...it takes the pressure off of me.  Then there comes the guilt again - "but I should want to do this or that with him".  I'm sort of exhausted of the guilt.

I am worried that if we have a break, the 'relief' as A.C. Doyle notes, may be too welcome.  And I will put my analytical powers into preventing this relief becoming a comfort, and to look at it logically.  So please don't think in your situation that your INTP is not deeply deeply concerned.  There are a lot of feelings at play here and the saturation point can be beyond overwhelming  Confused

I have a lot of guilt (there's that word again!).  If I can't give what is needed, I am stopping this person from getting what they need elsewhere.  All they need to do is stop loving me, find someone who wants the type of love that they really want to give.  I'll be fine, I'll be strong enough, it's about them.  I don't actually want this to happen, I just feel that somewhere along the way, through little actions, comments, the data has accumulated into the fact that we are not compatible.  Now it is hard to get out of my head (with the tiny...but many) bits of data that point to the truth.  Unless....I can find a different truth.  And that is where I am at!!!  The hardest thing is getting past what I perceive as fact.  The 'truth' that after asking for something in as many different ways that I could, but always being met with dismissal (of my need, feelings, of the fact that I'm being silly to even perceive that there is something wrong), even though subtle, means that now he is promising to change goes against the fact that previously he did not feel the need.   This becomes exacerbated by thoughts of all the little things that went previously unnoticed - I am now gathering further data to support my hypothesis.  In fact he has changed, but now, with all this further gathered data, I'm scarred and hardened from the past and that him changing now is due to fear of losing me. 

I hate myself for not speaking up more eloquently in the past.  But I also forgive myself because it has taken the last few years to get me to the point of being here.... I also forgive myself because we are both introverts who would rather walk away than truly own an emotion and make it big enough to make us vulnerable.

Sorry, I just sort of dribbled out my head onto the page.  I know that I'm a female INTP whereas you have a male INTP so I am sure there are some nuances....

So. What do I want?  What advice could I give, if his thoughts are anything near mine?  I don't know.  I think I would love the safe space to be able to tell him this - and KNOW that he would not take it personally, that he would listen and acknowledge the 'me' that is trying to make sense of things, that I am actually trying really hard, but the hypothesis is not matching the test results and I haven't quite developed a method yet for coming up with a useful understanding.  That he could take himself away from the situation and understand the data that running through my head, the edges of understanding that are not quite tangible yet.  But that is very selfish, because would I like to hear everything I have written above?  Probably not  Sad
Be in love with your life. Every minute of it. - Jack Kerouac
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#20
Quote:I have a lot of guilt (there's that word again!). If I can't give what is needed, I am stopping this person from getting what they need elsewhere.

Just wanted to throw some food for... thought, out on this one.

"I am stopping this person getting what they need elsewhere". This is an interesting line, and one I suggest looking at deeply and honestly. Are you stopping them? Truly? Are you holding back their arms? Are you commanding their thoughts, telling them what to do, and think? Are you holding them into place in the relationship there with you? Are they doing the same back? If, say, these emotional ties were not attached from you to your SO or your relationship, or whatever, could you up and leave if that is what you wished? Are those emotional ties tied there by them, or you?

[quote]All they need to do is stop loving me, find someone who wants the type of love that they really want to give. I'll be fine, I'll be strong enough, it's about them. I don't actually want this to happen, I just feel that somewhere along the way, through little actions, comments, the data has accumulated into the fact that we are not compatible. Now it is hard to get out of my head (with the tiny...but many) bits of data that point to the truth. Unless....I can find a different truth. And that is where I am at!!! The hardest thing is getting past what I perceive as fact. The 'truth' that after asking for something in as many different ways that I could, but always being met with dismissal (of my need, feelings, of the fact that I'm being silly to even perceive that there is something wrong), even though subtle, means that now he is promising to change goes against the fact that previously he did not feel the need. This becomes exacerbated by thoughts of all the little things that went previously unnoticed - I am now gathering further data to support my hypothesis. In fact he has changed, but now, with all this further gathered data, I'm scarred and hardened from the past and that him changing now is due to fear of losing me. [\quote]

I mentioned before about assumptions and how these lead to us interacting not with the person or situation in question, but our image of them. These assumptions are labels that skew our perception which then affects our interaction, and then leads on to further assumptions, or labels applied. This is obvious in how differently an interaction with a work colleague is compared to the manager, for example. Or your husband from when you first met him, to how he is now with all these extra assigned labels. I understand the drive to amass this data, sort it out into the relevant compartments for easy access, muse and refine upon it, increase or decrease the relevance etc etc - but actually I have come to realise that this just furthers us from where we should be - at peace. The more weight you assign these scars from the past the stronger hold they will have over you. The more you identify with them and the hurt they've caused, the further you retreat from the real world, and the further you travel into this "other" place. I am not saying that you should forgive and forget, or act like nothing has happened, but what I am asking you to take heed of is the extra pain you take into yourself every time you allow the past to rear up and overshadow you now. It has happened, and it sounds like it was horrible to go through, but you don't need to hold onto that and prolong your pain.

You come across to me as a caring and considerate person, and that is such a wonderful thing Smile and I hope you turn that care and consideration inward, because without a doubt you deserve it!

(Sorry jegergirl for slightly derailing the thread!)
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