Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
INTP Marriage failing.....help
#21
(06-07-2016, 10:23 PM)jayc Wrote:
Quote:I have a lot of guilt (there's that word again!).  If I can't give what is needed, I am stopping this person from getting what they need elsewhere.

Just wanted to throw some food for... thought, out on this one.

"I am stopping this person getting what they need elsewhere". This is an interesting line, and one I suggest looking at deeply and honestly. Are you stopping them? Truly? Are you holding back their arms? Are you commanding their thoughts, telling them what to do, and think? Are you holding them into place in the relationship there with you? Are they doing the same back? If, say, these emotional ties were not attached from you to your SO or your relationship, or whatever, could you up and leave if that is what you wished? Are those emotional ties tied there by them, or you?

You come across to me as a caring and considerate person, and that is such a wonderful thing Smile and I hope you turn that care and consideration inward, because without a doubt you deserve it!

(Sorry jegergirl for slightly derailing the thread!)
Thank you.  So much sense there.  I think I am just going to take a little break from INTPness. I might take a small vacation as an F type!! I do actually have a 5 week clinical coming up where I will be somewhere competely new with no-one I know (and a couple of Eckhart Tolle books Tongue ) I can experiment....and if I analyse anything it will be how interesting emotions are  Idea
Be in love with your life. Every minute of it. - Jack Kerouac
Reply
#22
(06-07-2016, 12:36 AM)jayc Wrote: My advice is talking. Talking and listening. The moment an assumption is made you are no longer talking to the person in front of you and instead you are talking to an image of that person in your head, a copy of them that has been adjusted to suit your view. And then if the person who's copy you are talking to makes assumptions about you, suddenly they are no longer talking to you, and now there are 4 separate people involved in this conversation, no-one is actually talking to each other and it goes nowhere, or degenerates.

Or rather, there are two separate conversations happening in parallel: you with the way you perceive them, and them with the way they perceive you. And nobody feels like they are being heard.

(06-07-2016, 08:48 PM)LucyLobster Wrote: As A.C. Doyle has noted, an INTP does not wish to control or possess anyone, and the further I move in trying to explain that two individuals being themselves without controlling each other, can operate as a couple better, the more he's trying to do anything to prove that he doesn't want to be without me.  I've asked him to get a hobby.  Begged him almost!! go cycling, find a walking group.  Honestly I don't know if I am doing to this to create some space or to give him something if I leave.  All I know is we have done everything together for years, even if I didn't want to.  I think I am pushing, because that is the point...."even if I didn't want to".  If there is someone else, a group, a person...it takes the pressure off of me.  Then there comes the guilt again - "but I should want to do this or that with him".  I'm sort of exhausted of the guilt.
My INFJ and I have been together since 2011 and have only just gotten to the point where we are acknowledging that we have different interests and want different hobbies. For the longest time she tried to get me into horses but I am just not horse-crazy like she is, and to me the benefit is not worth the cost. I do, however, feel a strong pull toward my dog, and am particularly tickled by the pursuit of motorcycle knowledge and expertise. So usually I ride my motorcycle while she is out at the barn with her horse, and we are both coming to be okay with this. We will always differ about the dogs, though, because I was raised with dogs as a part of the family and to me Aleks is my bestie, and she did not have her dog until she was an adult and to her training and maintaining Chloe is more like a hobby. I will always yearn for more dog time, and she will always wish I didn't have him around so much, and there is no escaping this as the activities that are the most dog-friendly (hiking, camping, picnics, visiting family, etc) are the exact activities wherein she would like to be able to relax dog-free.

That being said, we do have shared interests as well (nature, Game of Thrones, biking, cats, fanfiction, etc), and when those are the items on the table we do them together, so neither of us is made to feel like the other is not there for her.


LucyLobster Wrote:So. What do I want?  What advice could I give, if his thoughts are anything near mine?  I don't know.  I think I would love the safe space to be able to tell him this - and KNOW that he would not take it personally, that he would listen and acknowledge the 'me' that is trying to make sense of things, that I am actually trying really hard, but the hypothesis is not matching the test results and I haven't quite developed a method yet for coming up with a useful understanding.
I get this too. Often when feeling overwhelmed I get the urge to say something like, "Can we stop talking about this?" Alas, my INFJ has read The INTP Experience, and would likely believe this means the same as a "nevermind," despite my swearing up and down to the contrary.
"Well if I were You-Know-Who, I'd want you to feel cut off from everyone else. Because if it's just you alone you're not as much of a threat." -Luna Lovegood
Reply
#23
I haven’t been on here to post lately due to some life and medical issues that seem to have gotten in the way. With that being said I would like to get caught up and catch everyone up. I want to respond to comments then I would like to share what has been happening and get some advice. However first thing first.

(06-04-2016, 06:52 PM)A.C.Doyle Wrote: He wants to experiment to see if it is better for you both. He should be cautious with this however. He will feel such relief to be away from the confusing, emotionally charged situation that his feelings of relief could make him believe he is better off without you, even though this is probably untrue.

I to think you are correct about this. I think the same way. That with the relief that he will believe or convince himself that he is better. I find this very worrisome, troubling and a pretty scary for the future of our marriage.


(06-04-2016, 06:52 PM)A.C.Doyle Wrote: He thinks that you would self-sacrifice to save your marriage. This is apparently distasteful to him. INTP temperament does not wish to control or possess anyone. From his declaration that "all romantic attachments are possessive" I am fairly sure that you have made him feel like a possession at some points in your marriage, and that he has also caught himself "expecting" things of you. Possibly you ask him to "support your feelings' or "support you" when you are having feelings because "you belong to/with each other/a relationship is a mutual investment..." etc. He wants you to be equals, and for the marriage to be a win-win best-for-both deal.


Aren’t romantic relationships a mutual investment? Wouldn’t they have to be in order to succeed?


(06-04-2016, 06:52 PM)A.C.Doyle Wrote: Above all; he wants to be certain that your marriage IS actually beneficial for you, and not something that you are staying in because you feel bad for him because he's a looser, or because you are scared of doing something new.

How do or would I convey to him that it is none of those reason? He is definitely not a looser, that thought has not crossed my mind any in way and I do not feel bad for him. I do not want to my marriage to fail, but I am not scared of doing something new. I left a really emotional/physical and mentally abusive marriage with two children and little work experience in order to get out of a really bad situation for me and my children. My children are grown now so I have no responsibility now except me. So even though I might not know what I am going to do, I do know that if I can survive the previous relationship on my own with kids, then I am sure I can survive on my own now as well.


(06-04-2016, 06:52 PM)A.C.Doyle Wrote: Fourth: Make and implement some changes. If he (a) can be made aware that there are actually *concrete* (logical) reasons why you like and value him as a person, even without his emotional support. (b) Relieve him from said emotional pressure; while © Make definite steps to avoid pressuring him in that way in future, such as finding a "gripe buddy" or a forum online where you can release emotions.... essentially find a shoulder to cry on that isn't his... you may survive the hurricane. I'm sure you can think of some things you'd rather him find someone ELSE to unload on, and that way he won't feel like you're just making sacrifices, but that it was a cohesive choice-based decision to stay together.

How do or would I convey to him that it is none of those reason? He is definitely not a looser, that thought has not crossed my mind any in way and I do not feel bad for him. I do not want to my marriage to fail, but I am not scared of doing something new. I left a really emotional/physical and mentally abusive marriage with two children and little work experience in order to get out of a really bad situation for me and my children. My children are grown now so I have no responsibility now except me. So even though I might not know what I am going to do, I do know that if I can survive the previous relationship on my own with kids, then I am sure I can survive on my own now as well.


(06-04-2016, 06:52 PM)A.C.Doyle Wrote: Find a hobby that you both enjoy. Do it to death. Then find another one. Ditto. Connections grow like muscles and neural circuits; by usage. If you can mentally compete with him on something... anything, it would be stellar.

I am truly concerned that I am unable to compete with him on anything mentally, especially these days.
Reply
#24
(06-07-2016, 12:36 AM)jayc Wrote: My advice is talking. Talking and listening. The moment an assumption is made you are no longer talking to the person in front of you and instead you are talking to an image of that person in your head, a copy of them that has been adjusted to suit your view. And then if the person who's copy you are talking to makes assumptions about you, suddenly they are no longer talking to you, and now there are 4 separate people involved in this conversation, no-one is actually talking to each other and it goes nowhere, or degenerates.

This seems to be something that happens naturally or almost unconscionably. Thank you for pointing out about assumptions. My husband and I are both guilty of this.


(06-07-2016, 12:36 AM)jayc Wrote: Regardless of anything though, you aren't "broken". In absolutely no way are you broken. The true you - the only you that is actual and matters - can not be harmed, hurt or broken. The true you can become lost though, hidden behind a haze of thoughts and emotions. But know this, no matter the external influence (and your thoughts are included as "external") who you are still remains the same. If you lost an arm, who YOU are doesn't change. If you lost all your money and possessions, who YOU are doesn't change. If you lose a loved one, who YOU are doesn't change. When life seems to be at it's worst and nothing seems to be going right, the light is but a memory and pain is all you know - remember that none of that is YOU. Hear the silence between the sounds. Be the space within a room.

I hope what I have said helps or makes sense, feel free to ask or question anything and everything, and I wish you luck and goodwill in this and hope it all turns out the best for you Smile

How can I practice and learn how to be the space in the room?
Reply
#25
(06-07-2016, 08:48 PM)LucyLobster Wrote: I no longer have the energy to analyse, and an input of further data (let alone confusing pesky feelings) is putting me at a risk of drowning. So i stop it. [/quote}

My husband is at this point. He has not energy left either.

[quote='LucyLobster' pid='54437' dateline='1465346939']
I am worried that if we have a break, the 'relief' as A.C. Doyle notes, may be too welcome.  And I will put my analytical powers into preventing this relief becoming a comfort, and to look at it logically.  So please don't think in your situation that your INTP is not deeply deeply concerned.  There are a lot of feelings at play here and the saturation point can be beyond overwhelming  Confused

I am not sure that he would feel the same and put his analytical powers into preventing the relief from becoming a permanent. I actually worry that he would do the opposite. That he would use his analytical powers and logic to gather information to support that and convince himself and the relief he feels would consume him and our marriage would be completely doomed, if not already.

(06-07-2016, 08:48 PM)LucyLobster Wrote: I have a lot of guilt (there's that word again!).  If I can't give what is needed, I am stopping this person from getting what they need elsewhere.  All they need to do is stop loving me, find someone who wants the type of love that they really want to give.  


He said similar things to me. Such as I need to find someone who can love me like I need to be loved.

(06-07-2016, 08:48 PM)LucyLobster Wrote: I don't actually want this to happen, I just feel that somewhere along the way, through little actions, comments, the data has accumulated into the fact that we are not compatible.  Now it is hard to get out of my head (with the tiny...but many) bits of data that point to the truth.

Based on some of the previous conversations that my husband and I have had, I think/feel he has done this as well, and there is not a darn thing I can do about it.

(06-07-2016, 08:48 PM)LucyLobster Wrote: Unless....I can find a different truth.

I sincerely hope you can find a different truth. I also hope and wish that for my husband as well.

(06-07-2016, 08:48 PM)LucyLobster Wrote:  The hardest thing is getting past what I perceive as fact.
I think this is hard for most, but I can image that it would be even more so for INTP's.

(06-07-2016, 08:48 PM)LucyLobster Wrote: I am now gathering further data to support my hypothesis.  In fact he has changed, but now, with all this further gathered data, I'm scarred and hardened from the past and that him changing now is due to fear of losing me. 

That could be true he could be afraid of losing you, but he may have learned something, and he could be making honest changes. I have been accuse of this as well as doing things just to save the marriage. I don't want to loose him, but I have also grown and learned many things. I have many more to learn so even if we do not make it I will continue to grow. However, I am wishing you the best and I do hope that you can un-scar and un-harden your heart. I am wish this for my husband as well. If you do figure out how to do this I would appreciate any words of wisdom or advice you might have for me and my spouse.
Reply
#26
(06-07-2016, 10:23 PM)jayc Wrote: I mentioned before about assumptions and how these lead to us interacting not with the person or situation in question, but our image of them. These assumptions are labels that skew our perception which then affects our interaction, and then leads on to further assumptions, or labels applied. This is obvious in how differently an interaction with a work colleague is compared to the manager, for example. Or your husband from when you first met him, to how he is now with all these extra assigned labels. I understand the drive to amass this data, sort it out into the relevant compartments for easy access, muse and refine upon it, increase or decrease the relevance etc etc - but actually I have come to realise that this just furthers us from where we should be - at peace. The more weight you assign these scars from the past the stronger hold they will have over you. The more you identify with them and the hurt they've caused, the further you retreat from the real world, and the further you travel into this "other" place. I am not saying that you should forgive and forget, or act like nothing has happened, but what I am asking you to take heed of is the extra pain you take into yourself every time you allow the past to rear up and overshadow you now. It has happened, and it sounds like it was horrible to go through, but you don't need to hold onto that and prolong your pain.

You come across to me as a caring and considerate person, and that is such a wonderful thing and I hope you turn that care and consideration inward, because without a doubt you deserve it!
(Sorry jegergirl for slightly derailing the thread!)
This is not easy to let go of some things. I wished that I could learn my self to feel that I deserve it. No worries about the slight derail, I think it was a helpful derail.

So since my last activity before the 18th of August, and a couple of surgeries, things have kind of went all to Hades. Things have been kind of going along and there have been good days and not so good days and then some really horrible days. However all in all I thought up until this past weekend that we were at least making progress.....I was obviously wrong.

I am going to just put it all out here and maybe I shouldn't but I am hoping that maybe someone can shed some light on things, and answer some questions.
So some back story....
There is this co-worker that my husband works with that has in my opinion been over stepping her bounds and been inappropriate.
First thing she did was to flirt and come on to my husband right in front of my face at their work. Batting her eyes, and whining while asking him to help her with car. I never said anything to her, which in hind sight I should have. Instead, I mentioned it to him. Of course he played it off and said if she was flirting he did not realize it and it did not matter any way. Another instance was Halloween the workers were allowed to dress up if they wanted to at work. She dressed up as a witch in a somewhat inappropriate witch costume. I had went to meet my husband and she was telling me that she had got a new tattoo and asked me if I wanted to see it. I told her sure so rather than showing me, she waited and continue to wait until my husband walked over then hiked her skirt up to her growing area to show us a tattoo that was on the front part of her upper leg. Once again I did not say anything, which I regret in doing so and took it up with my husband who once again just blew it off and said that it was no big deal that he seen the tattoo and that was all and that he does not even remember what the tattoo is. Also there was this situation where she brought a movie in, and proceeded to tell me in front of him that she was going to make him watch the movie....by the way she is INTP....I told my husband at lunch that I was not ok with this and I did not want him to bring the movie home that I did not want him to watch her movie and give her the control, that we can go rent it. He brought the movie home anyway. To me that way a total slap in the face. I told him to take it back in the morning, which he took to work but did not take in and give to her because did not want her to think poorly of him. Then during a really bad time he has sent me away, to visit my family, actually told me he wanted me to stay there for a while…..This is when the part came in about time apart. While back in the states he was upset on day in the break room and when she came in he decided to open up with her and share with her that we were having trouble. Things and time has went on, and there has been an instance where he told me he loved her but in the since as the same love he feels for all human kind. Since then I have thought and felt that they have been and are getting to close as friends especially for a married man and married woman but he does not see it that way according to him.
Now fast forward to the 12th of August. I went to his work and like most times I do there she is right beside him no matter what or where. I was at the front desk waiting for someone to come up and he came up and she had to come with him. Of course I was upset and when we went to the break room I was expressing it strongly to my husband. He in return go mad and said I was not allowed to come to his place of work and act this way. I was not yelling or anything of that nature and even when other co-workers came around I was all smiles and pretending nothing was wrong because I know he does not like for everyone to know our business. He told me at the end of his lunch that we would continue to talk about this when he got home. When he arrived home he informed me that he was leaving. That he had decided this is what he had to do and it was best for me to just let him go. I did beg him not to go to let me leave instead. That if he went I would feel that he was going to go to her house. He told me that he was not going to go to her house or any other woman’s house, that he just need a break that he would go to base or somewhere. He left and later that night I wanted to check on him so I drove to base and text him to see if he was ok. He said yes. I asked him where he was and he said on base and finally told me where he was parked, but it was only his car. He was not in it or on base. I asked him if he was with her. He said no. He told me he was at one of the office on base. I knew that he was lying, I knew that he was not on base, I honestly did not think that he was with her or at her house. I figured that he was with one of the other co-workers. The next morning I had decided to go out of town so I went to base to get some things out of his car, and as I was pulling on to the one road I saw her pull up to the parking lot and let him out of the car. I went over and confronted him and asking what the hell was he doing getting out of her car and he proceeded to lie to me again. I then went to talk to their supervisor and found out through the other women that he did spend the night at her house but that her husband was supposedly home. So I did talk to a supervisor and he refused to talk to me, and I headed out of town, and while gone out of town he is contacting her via text chatting making small talk, but is refusing to talk to me unless I talk to him and respond to him according to him. I had a gut wrenching feeling that he would end up with here when he left the house but I was trying to trust and believe what he was saying because he says I don’t believe him, and look what I get when I tried.
I would like anyone’s response to this and their thoughts. I know it is long and I am sorry but figured you need some of the back story, but maybe not.
Regardless of if he did anything inappropriate with this other women or not, he lied and betrayed the trust we had.
I am not sure I will ever be able to trust him again. I think he should end whatever kind of relationship he has with this other women completely. I do not feel it is a good thing for him to continue this friendship just on the fact he lied to me, but also on the fact that this friendship has grown over the last year or so and I think it will continue to grow if not stopped. He stated that she was annoying when she first arrived and as time went on she became tolerable, then a co-worker to a friend to the most recent statement a really good friend that he fines her easy to talk to. What if any are your thoughts on this matter of the friendship?
Do INTP’s have a tendency to lie?
Do INTP’s feel remorse or regret?
Can he ever be trusted again?
He has made the statement that he can do whatever he feels like doing and as long as it does not go against what he thinks is wrong or against his boundaries. So then he has no problem doing things regardless of how they might affect me or the relationship. Regardless of my thoughts or feelings on the matter. Is this what INTP’s feel is ok when you are in a relationship with someone? Do their feelings or opinions not matter? Is it really ok to do something that you know will hurt your partner deeply just because you want to?

Please ask any questions you want to know? Oh if you need more information on this topic to give me any advice or suggestions? Or feel free if you just want to know more. I am sure I have more questions and will ask then later. Right now I am to overwhelmed to think or feel straight.
Reply
#27
Hey Jegergirl,
I'm sorry you're going through this right now, I know it can be painful to have your world shaken up like this.

One of my colleagues is experiencing something similar and he is having some similar reactions that I want to ask about because from my perspective it almost seems like you guys are torturing yourselves... I'm going to try to word this in a way that is as inoffensive as possible because I really am trying to better understand your thought process, not trying to insult you at all. I hope that's not how it comes across...

When your husband told you he needed to be physically distant from the highly emotionally charged situation with you and that he'd be "on base or somewhere," and then you made the decision to drive to base to check up on him........ What were you hoping to find? Or, I guess more specifically, what did you think you'd find?

If you had found him there just like he said he was, what (if anything) would that have changed about the situation between you and him? When I ask about you and him I am specifically excluding his interactions with her or anyone else, because the marriage is not about anyone outside of the two of you.

(08-19-2016, 04:32 PM)jegergirl Wrote: ....by the way she is INTP....
Though you toss this casually into the middle of a very emotional string of thoughts, it may be more important than you realize. (Caveat: it may also be less important than I realize, but let's explore it anyway.)

What I know about this situation so far (based my INTP interpretation of your posts) is that you and he see the world from different points of view, and it has started to cause trouble in your ability to relate to one another. It seems like you are expressing yourself very clearly in Jegergirl-ese, but he only speaks INTP-ish. This disconnect has grown frustrating to him, and instead of telling you what he wants in Jegergirlese (a language he doesn't know) he is making INTPish noises like "our connection has been lost" and "my current understanding of marriage makes me think it is not for me." And the more times you guys go back and forth on this, the more frustrating it gets for both of you, and you continue to handle it in different ways. You take to a forum of complete strangers who appear to handle things in a relatively similar fashion as him with the hope that you will find a greater understanding of what he is thinking (you are hoping to learn to speak INTPish). He leans more and more on an in-person friend he has made with whom he feels understood (likely using her as a sounding board for his emotions, if they're that close; he is speaking INTPish with one of the very few other people he has met who speak it also, and if she is married her husband is probably at least conversational, possibly fluent).
Quote:I think he should end whatever kind of relationship he has with this other women completely. I do not feel it is a good thing for him to continue this friendship just on the fact he lied to me, but also on the fact that this friendship has grown over the last year or so and I think it will continue to grow if not stopped. He stated that she was annoying when she first arrived and as time went on she became tolerable, then a co-worker to a friend to the most recent statement a really good friend that he fines her easy to talk to. What if any are your thoughts on this matter of the friendship?
I actually think it is good for him (and every person, regardless of marital status) to have friends that they feel they can talk to. This type of communication and sharing of human experiences is what continually reminds us that we are not crazy, nor are we the only person on the planet who has ever felt the way we are feeling. I think that more people should have friends they can turn to in times of struggle, and honestly (again, not trying to offend) I think you're being unfair to both him and yourself by believing otherwise. You will never ever ever in your life be able to dictate the behavior of any other adult human being, especially not one who is an INTP -- we spend our days lying wait for just such a challenge to our independence. Every moment you spend thinking that you will someday find the magic code that will make him stop being friends with this woman is a moment that you are wasting your mental energy on something you have zero control over. Your time would be much better spent coming to terms with this fact, then maybe extending an olive branch to her and asking for her help (she actually knows him in real life; if she were so inclined, and if he wanted her to, she could totally help you understand him way better).
Quote:Do INTP’s have a tendency to lie?
I can't speak for all INTPs, but my experience is that I personally have a tendency to say the thing that is least likely to cause a ruckus, and then work diligently to make it true afterwards.
Quote:Do INTP’s feel remorse or regret?
We are humans. We feel the full range of emotions, and we actually focus on a lot of them much more intensely that some other types. But firstly, there is a difference between feeling remorse over a mistake and admitting to that mistake, and secondly (more importantly) you are projecting onto this whole person external to yourself a set of emotions that you wish he would feel or that you think he would feel if he were experiencing this situation through Your lens. He likely does not interpret the thing you think he should regret as something that is regrettable.

Quote:Can he ever be trusted again?
By this I think you may mean, "Should I continue hoping that I'll one day be able to return to the same relationship with him as I had and expect the unwavering support and intimacy that I believed in prior to our growing apart as people"......

I know right now it may seem like the only thing you want is for time to rewind and thing to return to "normal," but unfortunately that's not how our current grasp on the flow of time works. He is a different person than he was when you met, and you are a different person than you were, and to expect that the two of you will go backward in your relationship is disrespectful of the fact that just like him, your needs have changed. The only way to go from here is Onward, and if you do sort through this with him your relationship will not be what it was. The sorting process will require of both of you that you come to greater understanding of the other, and the partnership that might arise would be one built on that better foundation.

(Besides, even if you could go backward, it would only be to watch this play out again without any ability of stopping or altering the flow of time.)

Quote:So then he has no problem doing things regardless of how they might affect me or the relationship. Regardless of my thoughts or feelings on the matter. Is this what INTP’s feel is ok when you are in a relationship with someone? Do their feelings or opinions not matter? Is it really ok to do something that you know will hurt your partner deeply just because you want to?
Remember when you asked about what a committed relationship meant to me, and I specifically said that I make carefully considered choices that have the least chance of hurting my INFJ? Remember? I said, "I'm totally free to engage in relationships with people outside of my current relationship; I choose not to because it would hurt someone I love. (This is comparable to: I am totally free to feed chocolate to my dog, but I don't, because I love him and this would hurt him.)"

There are two things about this:
1. It is unlikely that he is unaware of how his actions are affecting you. It is less unlikely that he has some sort of understanding (primitive though it may be) of how you will interpret his actions, and he may think (correctly?) that this will hurt you in such a way that you don't want to contact him for a time (think of this less like manipulation, more like lashing out).

2. If you are feeling pain at his hands (emotional, physical, mental, etc), you should think about whether or not this relationship is in your personal best interest. Nobody deserves to feel hurt by the person they place the most trust in, and you should absolutely take care of your needs first and foremost -- because if you won't, who will?
"Well if I were You-Know-Who, I'd want you to feel cut off from everyone else. Because if it's just you alone you're not as much of a threat." -Luna Lovegood
Reply
#28
I think regardless of any action that you may take to work to reconcile your relationship with him that you should consider some therapy for yourself. Your other efforts may pay off in the short term, but for any long term continued growth, whether you are together or not,
Reply
#29
I think regardless of any action that you may take to work to reconcile your relationship with him that you should consider some therapy for yourself, if you are not already receiving therapy. Your other efforts may pay off in the short term, but for any long term continued healing and growth, whether you guys are together or not, you're likely to benefit from some help in that healing process. Do not wait for him to come around before seeking help for yourself. Do not determine whether or not you need help based upon any immediate positive response you may get from renewing your efforts. Instead, do this for yourself.

I was married to an ESFJ man for 20 years. It is not an easy pairing (not that any marriage or LTR is easy). I'm simply saying that I know how hard it can be on both people.

Regardless of type, you're hurting. Be kind to yourself and get the support that you need during this very difficult and confusing time. My best wishes to both of you.

BTW, in my opinion, he does not want you to sacrifice who you are for the marriage, because he knows how painful that is. And just as he doesn't want any more pain, he wants no more for you, or so it seems. If you tend to martyr yourself, as many do, that may also be a contributing factor (not saying you do...saying IF you do).

And, IMO, it's not a cop out for him to say that marriage stifles freedom. Based on relative chronology in the OP, it's quite possible that he's processing what he is learning about himself, thus the entire big picture of life, through his MBTI. Being different in so many ways from the majority of people is very hard. Very hard. In my experience, being married to an ESFJ isn't being married to one person, it's being married to society, the masses who dictate cultural norms, including values. Performing within the expected gender and marital roles can be exhausting mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and even take a toll physically. But worse is being a person whose core principles are founded upon reason, logical principles, and unifying truths that often fly in the face of those traditions for traditions sake, expectations, and oft unsound moral judgements. And, all of the power of that is at the disposal of each member of the mob when they wish to yield it. Autonomy cannot be honored by one with such a mindset.

That's MY take on it. Just something to think about. How many people are at your dinner table, invited into your personal conversations, in your bed? Not literally, figuratively?

I wish you both the best.
Reply
#30
I hope my questions do not offend any INTP's or anyone. They are not meat to be offensive.

(08-19-2016, 11:35 PM)Moon Moon Wrote: When your husband told you he needed to be physically distant from the highly emotionally charged situation with you and that he'd be "on base or somewhere," and then you made the decision to drive to base to check up on him........ What were you hoping to find? Or, I guess more specifically, what did you think you'd find?
I was unsure of what I thought I would find. I was hoping to find that he was on base like he said he would be, that he was keeping his word about not going to her or any other women and that this gut feeling was wrong. Since according to him, feeling can not always be trusted.
(08-19-2016, 11:35 PM)Moon Moon Wrote: If you had found him there just like he said he was, what (if anything) would that have changed about the situation between you and him? When I ask about you and him I am specifically excluding his interactions with her or anyone else, because the marriage is not about anyone outside of the two of you.
It may not have changed much in the moment, but a lot in the long run. It would have shown me that I could trust his word and not necessarily nagging gut feeling I was having. He has always stated that feelings are unreliable at best. That he has integrity, and honor in himself and his word, regardless of the state of our relationship. That he has not lost all respect for our relationship. Instead he has kind of proven the opposite.
(08-19-2016, 11:35 PM)Moon Moon Wrote: I actually think it is good for him (and every person, regardless of marital status) to have friends that they feel they can talk to. This type of communication and sharing of human experiences is what continually reminds us that we are not crazy, nor are we the only person on the planet who has ever felt the way we are feeling. I think that more people should have friends they can turn to in times of struggle, and honestly (again, not trying to offend) I think you're being unfair to both him and yourself by believing otherwise.

I agree that it is good to have friends and I have never not wanted that for him, even though he believes otherwise. I do understand how it feels to not have them to talk to and share things with and to feel understood, more in the last 4 years than ever. We have been stationed overseas for the last 4 years and even thought I am an ESFJ, it does not mean that I make friends easy or that any one will do. I have been isolated over here without these things for a while now. So I do understand, however when those friendships start to interfere with your primary romantic relationship, then things need to be discussed and both partners’ thoughts/feelings should be considered. Unless that relationship is no longer important to you, or is that not a fair statement?

If your INFJ, came to you about a friend that she thought/felt that you two were getting to close or that there had been some inappropriate behavior regardless of on your part or the part of the friend and that your actions towards this person were confirming her thoughts/feelings. How would you have handled it?
Say more inappropriate on the friend’s behaviors than yours, but you did not see it that way, but your INFJ did, what would be your course of action?
If your INFJ express a concern that your behavior with this particular friend portrayed very close resemblance to behavior when you getting to know/perusing her (INFJ). How would you proceed with this situation? Would you just tell her that she is being completely irrational? Would you continue the behavior/actions that lead your INFJ to come to this conclusion? Would you just blow her off? Would you think she was being completely irrational?

If anyone else would like to answer these questions as well, please feel free to do so. I am really curious and like to learn different perspectives as well.
(08-19-2016, 11:35 PM)Moon Moon Wrote: You will never ever ever in your life be able to dictate the behavior of any other adult human being, especially not one who is an INTP -- we spend our days lying wait for just such a challenge to our independence.
I am not out to challenge his independence, nor do I want him to think that I am. I know what that is like from my previous marriage. He has always been free to choose, regardless of the outcome. It may not be the outcome he wants or the outcome I want, but the freedom to choose is there.
(08-19-2016, 11:35 PM)Moon Moon Wrote: Every moment you spend thinking that you will someday find the magic code that will make him stop being friends with this woman is a moment that you are wasting your mental energy on something you have zero control over. Your time would be much better spent coming to terms with this fact, then maybe extending an olive branch to her and asking for her help (she actually knows him in real life; if she were so inclined, and if he wanted her to, she could totally help you understand him way better).

I guess what I want is for him to decide, which relationship he wants. If he wants this deeper, emotional, intimate relationship with her….(aside from a physical one, which he say he does not want, and according to him he is not emotional invested in her either) then he needs to make that decision and tell me.
I guess I am selfish in the respect that I am very monogamous in my views on relationships. I believe you can have connections with people and friends but that you have to proceed with caution when it comes to those relationships outside the partnership. If caution is not taken, close friendships can lead to other things……This is something that I have experienced (before my husband now), and watched others experience it as well.
If she knows him so much better than I after all these year, and she may, then he needs to be honest. If he enjoys spending time with her over his wife then once again he needs to be honest.
Honesty is very important to me, is it to INTP's ?
(08-19-2016, 11:35 PM)Moon Moon Wrote: I said, "I'm totally free to engage in relationships with people outside of my current relationship; I choose not to because it would hurt someone I love.
This really touches me. Through your words it shows how much you love your INFJ and I am really happy for you. I wished I could know this from my INTP.

He is totally free to make that choice to engage in and emotional/intimate relationship with her or anyone else if he so chooses, but with that choice come responsibility. The responsibility to be honest and to inform me, not to lie. I also have the right to choose to not stay, because I do not choose to be with anyone who does not value honesty and thinks it is ok to do whatever the heck they want regardless of their partner, especially doing so knowing that will damage the relationship and hurt them.

Do INTP’s think it is ok to just do whatever it is you want regardless of how it might affect/effect their partner?
Moon Moon you have kind of already answered this above, I am hoping that others will give their take on it as well.
(08-19-2016, 11:35 PM)Moon Moon Wrote: By this I think you may mean, "Should I continue hoping that I'll one day be able to return to the same relationship with him as I had and expect the unwavering support and intimacy that I believed in prior to our growing apart as people"......

Does there not need to be some type of support and intimacy for a relationship to be able to continue?

I know there is no going back, I would like to be able to go back to being able to trust him. However, I realize that nothing will ever be the same again. Ture, we will need to sort things out regardless of the outcome. I do hope that if we find a way to stay together that we do have something better than what we had before. I just am not sure how to even start that process right now or even if it would work.
I really want to know what INTP’s think when it comes to people that straight out lie to you?
Do you think that it is possible to be able to trust that they would not just lie again?
Is it possible to rebuild trust?
If yes, then how does that work for an INTP?
(08-19-2016, 11:35 PM)Moon Moon Wrote: But firstly, there is a difference between feeling remorse over a mistake and admitting to that mistake,
Is it hard for INTP’s to admit to mistakes? Or is the remorse the hard part? Can you explain this more?
(08-19-2016, 11:35 PM)Moon Moon Wrote: He likely does not interpret the thing you think he should regret as something that is regrettable.
His choice to do what he did and to lie about it that is what I think he should feel/think something about. If he does not feel/think that he has messed up in any way then there is not apology and it is likely to happen again because nothing was learned. If that is the case I am not safe in this relationship any longer.
Without trust what can there be?
When in a romantic relationship with someone does their feelings/thoughts and opinions matter to you?
If so how would you proceed or handle and situation that you both have different views?
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)