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INTP Marriage failing.....help
#31
I'm really late to this conversation, but I'd like to put in my 2-cents. I'm an INTP, and I've been with a lovely INFJ since we were 16 (that's 22 years!)

The T/F thing can be incredibly difficult to get past, and it can only be done by accepting that the other person will NEVER think the way you to. To come to an understanding, sometimes you have to both learn to speak and accept the other person's point of view as valid.

The thing that really caught my eye in what you said above is this:
Quote:I guess I am selfish in the respect that I am very monogamous in my views on relationships. I believe you can have connections with people and friends but that you have to proceed with caution when it comes to those relationships outside the partnership. If caution is not taken, close friendships can lead to other things……This is something that I have experienced (before my husband now), and watched others experience it as well.

Every relationship is different, and every human is different, but to me, as an INTP, very close friendships, especially with another IN, are an amazing and rarely experienced novelty that I like to think of as rocket fuel for a starved brain. And because of that, it is my brain, and only my brain, that engages with these other people. Give this relationship a really good look, as much as you can, before you make any assumptions.

I cannot speak for all INTP's, but honesty matters to me, in that TRUTH is the king that dictates my actions. But I've been known to tell white lies to protect people I love. Sometimes because I don't want to hurt their feelings, sometimes because I just don't want to deal with the conflict I know would be forthcoming.

Finally, I will tell you that one of the things I, personally, struggle with is feeling like I'm not really up to snuff in my relationship (and this is after 22 years). I feel like I don't contribute enough, and that the relationship isn't fair because of that (I have a fairness hangup.) My INFJ tells me that relationships don't have to be perfectly fair, it's enough to know that we can count on one another to be there, and that how we actually end up dividing the responsibilities doesn't really matter that much. This is the one time I can say this - I don't feel like I do enough. Sometimes I think that she would be much better off in a relationship with someone who could pull their weight (I'm not much emotional support, and I often don't help out as much around the house as I think I should, since I tend to get caught up in researching, things like that.) She hates to hear me say it, but again, it doesn't matter, it's how I feel. I can't imagine how much harder it would be if she had ever told me that I wasn't pulling my weight.
I never know what to say in a signature. Maybe someday this will be clever. Right now, it's just pathetic.
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#32
(08-25-2016, 04:21 PM)Nemo Wrote: I'm really late to this conversation, but I'd like to put in my 2-cents. I'm an INTP, and I've been with a lovely INFJ since we were 16 (that's 22 years!)


The T/F thing can be incredibly difficult to get past, and it can only be done by accepting that the other person will NEVER think the way you to. To come to an understanding, sometimes you have to both learn to speak and accept the other person's point of view as valid.

Congrats on the 22 years.......that is a wonderful thing.

Learning to speak and understand the other persons point of view as valid is good advice. I am trying to do so, I am not sure he is, based on the things he says and his reactions and treatment of things, but I could be wrong.


(08-25-2016, 04:21 PM)Nemo Wrote: Every relationship is different, and every human is different, but to me, as an INTP, very close friendships, especially with another IN, are an amazing and rarely experienced novelty that I like to think of as rocket fuel for a starved brain. And because of that, it is my brain, and only my brain, that engages with these other people. Give this relationship a really good look, as much as you can, before you make any assumptions.

First can I ask give what relationship a really good look, the one between my husband and I, or the one between my husband and the other woman?

True that every relationship is different, as well as every human. However his actions and behavior has been similar to his actions and behavior when we were getting to know each other, and then started to date. He has not portrayed this behavior toward any other female or male friend, except me in the last 16 years, until now. I think that would raise red flags for anyone, and it did me. With each red flag, I would bring it to his attention and question and he would tell me that I am being ridiculous and jealous and blow me off.

I do understand the brain fuel and that he needs that and that type of connection. I don't understand his other behaviors toward this person or making emotional/intimate connections with someone other than your spouse and I definitely don't understand the lying. If there is nothing there between them and it is all innocent then why lie? I realize that no one can answer that question but him.


The more I read and learn about his personality and mine, and read the comments about our differences ....it makes me question how did we ever make it this far. Also makes me think that my marriage is pretty hopeless. I am actually feeling pretty hopeless about the survival of my marriage at this point. I am really hating being a ESFJ right now.

I feel that he would be happier with an INTP partner but he keeps telling me that he does not think that would be a good match, at least not for him.

Nemo, would you mind sharing more about conflict resolution between you and your partner? Or any one can.

Are there any INTP's that have a successful relationship with an ESFJ?
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#33
"The more I read and learn about his personality and mine, and read the comments about our differences ....it makes me question how did we ever make it this far. Also makes me think that my marriage is pretty hopeless. I am actually feeling pretty hopeless about the survival of my marriage at this point. I am really hating being a ESFJ right now.

I feel that he would be happier with an INTP partner but he keeps telling me that he does not think that would be a good match, at least not for him. " j-girl (sorry, I've not yet read up on how to pull off a quote).

I can see how my post would ve discouraging in a certain light. Let me say that I wholeheartedly believe that any two people, regardless of type preference, can be together happily. MBTI is but one way to understand part of a person. Every INTP is different, as is every ESFJ, commonalities aside. You aren't destined to be incompatible. People of any type can have a healthy relationship (I can't speak to successful, it's too subjective). Perhaps go to some MBTI sites and read beyond the profiles. See excerpt below from just one.

"That old concept and expression "opposites attract" has been batted around for centuries. And in fact, it's very true when it comes to love relationships. Through our research, we have noted that people are usually attracted to their opposite on the Extraversion/Introversion and Judging/Perceiving scales. We are naturally attracted to individuals who are different from ourselves - and therefore somewhat exciting. But it's not just the exciting differences which attract us to our opposites, it is also a natural quest for completion. We naturally are drawn towards individuals who have strengths which we are missing. When two opposites function as a couple, they become a more well-rounded, functioning unit. There is also the theory that our natural attraction to our opposites is a subconscious way of forcing us to deal with the weaker aspects of our own nature. While we are highly attracted to our opposites, two opposites involved in an intimate relationship have significant issues and communication barriers to overcome. So in a sense, our attraction to the opposite personality can be seen as our subconscious minds driving us towards becoming a more complete individual, by causing us to face the areas in life which are most difficult to us.

The same cannot be said for other kinds of relationships. When it comes to work colleagues, or friends, we are not especially interested in dealing with people who are very unlike ourselves. We are most comfortable with those who have similar interests and perspectives, and we do not show a lot of motivation or patience for dealing with our opposites."
https://www.personalitypage.com/html/relationships.html

Moon and Nemo said some important things about accepting and learning differences. We can offer what we think, how we are, respectively, but we cannot speak to the motives of every INTP or your husband's.

In general, INTPs are thought to value honesty and truth, sincerity, and loathe the disingenuous. It's a good base to start with, even if it's imperfect, to begin a foundation of open communication, respect, and trust. Building that foundation may take some help. Especially since there appears to be a trust issue now. But, no one can tell you if you should continue to extend trust or not. I can tell you that personally, it hurt me deeply when my word wasn't taken by the person I'd spent half my of my life with, and who claimed to love me more than anything in this world. I learned he could only view motives through the lens of what is most common rather than wrap his head around how different than him I am. I tell you that to emphasize two points made by other posters. INTPs are human, and we hurt like anyone else, and I dare say a cut deeper than some, when we aren't respected or trusted by those we feel we've earned it from. I don't know if he's legitimately earned a loss of trust. But, he's not copping to it, and you can't make him. And, second, you can't change another, you can only change yourself. Learn, grow, heal, and choose what you want to do with that. Will continuing in distrust get you what you want? I'd say it's a lot more likely to get you what you most fear.

I hope you hear some success stories, but even if you don't, remember, you and he are just that, you and he.
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#34
Conflict resolution - wow. If I were to be really honest, we weren't good at conflict early on.

Like I said, we got together, romantically, when we were 16. We were really too young to be so deep in a relationship, and we both agree now that we're much more mature enough. Let's skip the years of youth, and get on to the stuff that really works.

What works best for us is this:

After a few minutes to cool down, we discuss what's wrong. What bothered me, or what bothered her. Why? No judgments, no counterarguments, just explanations.

If she's upset with me, it's VERY likely I said or did something insensitive again. When she's upset with me, it's usually that I forgot to consider Feelings when I was Thinking. She tells me how it made her feel. I tell her what I intended. And we take a break. It's hard for me to understand her emotions, but I've made a promise that I will try to understand why she feels the way she does. All reasons are valid, including just plain being crabby that day. She has promised me that she will try to understand what I was trying to or say.

After some time, when we both feel we've processed what happened, we come back together to discuss again. It's hard. We speak different languages. Sometimes it takes four or five sessions of soul-bearing before we both feel we've hashed things out well enough.

When I'm upset with her, we go through the same process, but usually when it's me that's upset, the cause was that I feel like she's put too much emphasis on schedules/tasks/etc. When I'm upset with her, it's usually over the stress Judging puts on me, when I very much live in a Perceiving world (good explanation found here)

You know how I said we didn't used to be good at this? Well, what I used to do was to tell her that she was being illogical, and too emotional. She used to tell me I didn't understand her. This was true. I didn't value feelings, and hers were included. I still don't really value my feelings (I've gotta work on this) but I've made it, in my mind, a taboo to ever doubt what she says about her feelings. If she says something hurt her feelings, I believe her. I told her, years ago, that I was trusting her to tell me what I need to know about how she's feeling. And I told her that I will try to learn what bothers her, and stop doing it. Consequently, she promised me that if something is a fluke, and it wouldn't normally bother her but she's having an irrational day, she'll tell me. That way I know if I need to make a new rule. I live by rules, so this is important. I can't really understand how she feels, but I can accept that if I behave a certain way, it will always bother her.

Now, the other way. She has promised me that she will trust me get things done on time. If she sees that it looks like I'm behind on a deadline, she will remind me, but she will trust that I will get it done on time. I've promised her that if it looks like I didn't manage my time appropriately, and I need help, I will let her know. This has removed the element of constant nervousness for her that I'm never going to do anything on time, and the constant frustration for me when I'm reminded perpetually of something I have plenty of time to get done.

The real key to how this works is that I trust her when she tells me how she feels. She trusts me to get things done on time. And both of these rely on proper communication before she hits a boiling point, or before I'm hopelessly behind. I trust her not to use made-up feelings to manipulate (this is a trust issue for me, thanks to my upbringing), and I struggle with this. Vice-versa, she struggles with trusting people to do things they promised her they would, so it's really important to her that I communicate on tasks, and it's really important that I do what I say I will.

Everybody's different. I can't say that enough. Best of luck.
I never know what to say in a signature. Maybe someday this will be clever. Right now, it's just pathetic.
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#35
Here is the dilemma at hand. My husband (INTP) has state that he has never wanted a divorce, that a divorce has never been his goal. However he still thinks that we need time apart from each other in order to figure out if the relationship is what we want. I still disagree, on my part. I do not think time apart will help me at all. In fact the first time he suggested this I tried to explain to him why this would not be a good workable solution for me. Now with the issue of him lying and creating a huge trust issue, separation, (which would mean 4000 miles a part across an ocean) is to me is even more of a issue and not a workable solution.


This is what I think.... If I stay he will get angry and resent me, it will cause more damage, and destroy his hopes for our relationship and future.
If I go it will destroy me and will destroy what hopes I have for our relationship and future. So it is kind of a lose, lose situation.
So how do I explain this to him that so that he understands that I am not just making this up based on my feelings alone, and that it is not just my emotions getting in the way, that I have put a lot of thought into this and it is still not a good option?

I think that is would not be a good option for either of us in the long run. I think like it was said before in one of the other post. That he could/would use the time a part as an escape and will allow it to convince himself that even though he does not want a divorce, that it is his only or best option.

One of my issues with living separate is the trust issue. I had doubts before with trust due to his actions, and now after he has proven me right there is no more doubt. I think it is impossible to work on trusting him again living so far a part.

There has to be a way to do this that is good for both of us, any suggestions on that would be great as well.
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#36
(10-24-2016, 04:04 AM)jegergirl Wrote: Here is the dilemma at hand. My husband (INTP) has state that he has never wanted a divorce, that a divorce has never been his goal. However he still thinks that we need time apart from each other in order to figure out if the relationship is what we want. I still disagree, on my part. I do not think time apart will help me at all. In fact the first time he suggested this I tried to explain to him why this would not be a good workable solution for me. Now with the issue of him lying and creating a huge trust issue, separation, (which would mean 4000 miles a part across an ocean) is to me is even more of a issue and not a workable solution.


This is what I think.... If I stay he will get angry and resent me, it will cause more damage, and destroy his hopes for our relationship and future.
If I go it will destroy me and will destroy what hopes I have for our relationship and future. So it is kind of a lose, lose situation.
So how do I explain this to him that so that he understands that I am not just making this up based on my feelings alone, and that it is not just my emotions getting in the way, that I have put a lot of thought into this and it is still not a good option?

I think that is would not be a good option for either of us in the long run. I think like it was said before in one of the other post. That he could/would use the time a part as an escape and will allow it to convince himself that even though he does not want a divorce, that it is his only or best option.

One of my issues with living separate is the trust issue. I had doubts before with trust due to his actions, and now after he has proven me right there is no more doubt. I think it is impossible to work on trusting him again living so far a part.

There has to be a way to do this that is good for both of us, any suggestions on that would be great as well.

Hi there,

I've been lurking on this thread for awhile and not saying anything, mainly because I believe it is possible you're not going to like what I have to say. Like many INTPs, I'm conflict averse, even in text. Just so you're forewarned. I can give you advice, but I'm pretty sure this is not what you want to hear. Feel free to disregard it if you don't like it.

My father's personality type was INTP and my mother's was ESFJ. It's given me some insight into your situation. I think INTP/ESFJ has issues, and one of them can be jealousy.

I'll quote from your much earlier post:

Quote:I am going to just put it all out here and maybe I shouldn't but I am hoping that maybe someone can shed some light on things, and answer some questions.
So some back story....
There is this co-worker that my husband works with that has in my opinion been over stepping her bounds and been inappropriate.
First thing she did was to flirt and come on to my husband right in front of my face at their work. Batting her eyes, and whining while asking him to help her with car. I never said anything to her, which in hind sight I should have. Instead, I mentioned it to him. Of course he played it off and said if she was flirting he did not realize it and it did not matter any way. Another instance was Halloween the workers were allowed to dress up if they wanted to at work. She dressed up as a witch in a somewhat inappropriate witch costume. I had went to meet my husband and she was telling me that she had got a new tattoo and asked me if I wanted to see it. I told her sure so rather than showing me, she waited and continue to wait until my husband walked over then hiked her skirt up to her growing area to show us a tattoo that was on the front part of her upper leg. Once again I did not say anything, which I regret in doing so and took it up with my husband who once again just blew it off and said that it was no big deal that he seen the tattoo and that was all and that he does not even remember what the tattoo is. Also there was this situation where she brought a movie in, and proceeded to tell me in front of him that she was going to make him watch the movie....by the way she is INTP....I told my husband at lunch that I was not ok with this and I did not want him to bring the movie home that I did not want him to watch her movie and give her the control, that we can go rent it. He brought the movie home anyway. To me that way a total slap in the face. I told him to take it back in the morning, which he took to work but did not take in and give to her because did not want her to think poorly of him. Then during a really bad time he has sent me away, to visit my family, actually told me he wanted me to stay there for a while…..This is when the part came in about time apart. While back in the states he was upset on day in the break room and when she came in he decided to open up with her and share with her that we were having trouble. Things and time has went on, and there has been an instance where he told me he loved her but in the since as the same love he feels for all human kind. Since then I have thought and felt that they have been and are getting to close as friends especially for a married man and married woman but he does not see it that way according to him.
Now fast forward to the 12th of August. I went to his work and like most times I do there she is right beside him no matter what or where. I was at the front desk waiting for someone to come up and he came up and she had to come with him. Of course I was upset and when we went to the break room I was expressing it strongly to my husband. He in return go mad and said I was not allowed to come to his place of work and act this way. I was not yelling or anything of that nature and even when other co-workers came around I was all smiles and pretending nothing was wrong because I know he does not like for everyone to know our business. He told me at the end of his lunch that we would continue to talk about this when he got home. When he arrived home he informed me that he was leaving.

Someone earlier advised you to seek counseling, and I think it would have been a wise choice. Your husband is leaving in part I think because what you described in your first post was your getting extremely jealous over a situation in which there were possibly not a lot of causes for jealousy (at the time) but you may have actually created a situation where he decided you didn't understand him at all, which may ironically have made more distance between you.

If you can't understand this, I'll explain. Trust is a huge thing in a relationship. You need to trust your partner even if he comes into contact with many flirting women day after day, or if his coworkers drag him out to a strip club, or whatever happens. If he's committed to you, these won't be issues, because a commitment is a commitment, and there's no need to fear, in a healthy relationship. But instead, you read a lot of things into these interactions, which means there was a problem there, either with you or with the relationship. Reading the way you wrote it, I infer it was with the way you saw things.

I doubt there was anything in it, with his coworker. If you read through the interactions again without seeing anything sinister, it just sounds like she was a socially awkward woman (INTP females tend to be, more often than not.) I know this is hard for you to understand as an ESFJ, but INTP women can misunderstand social cues quite a lot. Even if she was outright flirting with him, though, that does *not* mean that he was flirting with her! And that's where you made a huge mistake. If she was flirting with him and he was not flirting back, you should have just trusted him. If you had, he would have loved you for it; that's how trust and love are strengthened, not ripped apart.

Unfortunately, because you read so much into it and accused him of stuff he most likely was innocent of doing, (multiple times) that angered him and put distance between you. And as a result, he might have gone and talked to her and then things may have happened between them. What I'm saying is that your jealousy may have created the very rift you didn't want to happen. And yes, he may have had an affair now. There's no way to tell. But you've doubled down on the situation now, and doubling down again only makes it worse. You have to back off now.

Which is why, above all, you should really seek some counseling. You are still projecting the issues onto him (your post just now said "with him lying") and the truth is, you have to own your own issues too. You don't own him; he's an individual. Yes, he made a promise to you, but the thing is, you've acted in such a way that he feels backed into a corner, uncertain if he still wants to be with you, because of the way you are acting, and that makes him feel suffocated, upset, and "like you don't understand him."

You also keep blaming him for what happened because you are angry. You did it again in this last post, where you said this is about his lying. You didn't attribute any of this to your jealousy. But nobody's issues in the relationship are just one sided. No wonder he's feeling like he wants distance from you. The more you do this, scapegoat him, the more he's going to flee from you. This situation is like dynamite; it's exploding in a sequence, and it's going to keep exploding until the relationship is done, unless you follow a series of steps to stop it. I thought i'd take the chance, though, but if you want this relationship to succeed, you are going to have to do a lot of work, and it is on you to do it, if you want it. You have to learn to stop blaming him, and basically set up a firewall to stop this self-destructive cycle, because what is going on is currently forming a pattern of putting more and more distance between the two of you.

The first thing you'd have to do is to stop saying it was his fault. I don't know how much water has gone under the bridge in your own particular situation, with regards to this relationship; that's something you'd have to sort out.

Here's another statement he made: "However he still thinks that we need time apart from each other in order to figure out if the relationship is what we want. I still disagree, on my part. I do not think time apart will help me at all." I am certain this statement bothered you a lot, and you're probably not entirely sure why he said it.

He said this because what you did in terms of the jealousy and accusations and everything hurt him a lot, and when INTPs are hurt, we put distance and space between us and the person who hurt us. If he wants 4,000 miles between you guys, you hurt him really, really deeply. And that tells me that for him, it looks like it's pretty much over, he just wants time to think it all over and process it before he tells you that. I suspect that you are clinging on to the relationship in part because you are still angry and you want him to apologize, because you're still jealous, it still hurts, you still love him, and in part, you are still blaming him. A tangle of emotions.

To summarize, I believe that your relationship is a wreck right now, and anger and jealousy on your part are going to drive it towards its inevitable conclusion unless you have the courage, compassion, and maturity to do several things:

1. Get counseling entirely on your own, process what actually happened with the help of a good therapist, and process your own issues without unloading them on your husband as well.
2. Figure out what actually happened with the jealousy and why you reacted that way. Does it go back to some issue in childhood? Does it go back to abandonment in some prior relationship? Why did what happened with that woman make you feel so angry? Did she remind you of someone? Work it out with the therapist but not with your husband. Once you've sorted it out, apologize deeply and sincerely to your husband, but make sure you can absolve him of all blame. Reassure him that you will not ever react this way in the future but also let him know that if he cannot trust you, you understand that. You will respect his decision no matter how he decides. Make sure you can actually do this, because if you can't, it won't work.
3. Reflect on your own life choices up till this point and decide what you want to do even if your husband splits up with you. You need to know you can move on and be a better person and learn from this even if this is the conclusion.

I hope this helps somewhat, and sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear. Just calling it like I see it.
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